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Thread: SNR Margin and Line Attenuation - What do they mean?

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    Thumbs up SNR Margin and Line Attenuation - What do they mean?

    There have been many posts regarding SNR and Line Attenuation.

    SNR
    SNR means Signal to Noise Ratio. Simply put divide the Signal value by Noise Value and you get SNR. You need high SNR for a stable connection. In general, a higher signal to noise ratio will result in less errors.

    • 6bB. or below = Bad and will experience no line synchronisation and frequent disconnections
    • 7dB-10dB. = Fair but does not leave much room for variances in conditions.
    • 11dB-20dB. = Good with little or no disconnection problems
    • 20dB-28dB. = Excellent
    • 29dB. or above = Outstanding


    Note that most modems display value as SNR Margin and not pure SNR.

    SNR Margin
    You can think of SNR margin as the measure of quality of the service; it defines the ability of the service to work error free during noise bursts.

    This is a measure of the difference between your current SNR and the SNR that is required to keep a reliable service at your connection speed. If your SNR is very close to the minimum required SNR, you are more likely to suffer intermittent connection faults, or slowdowns. You need a high margin to ensure that bursts of interference don't cause constant disconnections.

    With traditional broadband, the higher the SNR Margin, the better. With MaxDSL the faster speeds are only available as a trade-off with what your line can reliably support. The Target SNR Margin is about 6dB. If your broadband is provided through an LLU (Local Loop Unbundled) network, this target SNR Margin may be as high as 12dB.

    Line Attenuation
    In gerneral, attenuation is the loss of signal over distance. Unfortunately, dB loss is not just dependent on distance. It also depends on cable type and gauge (which can differ over the length of the cable), the number and location other connection points on the cable.

    • 20bB. and below = Outstanding
    • 20dB-30dB. = Excellent
    • 30dB-40dB. = Very Good
    • 40dB-50dB. = Good
    • 50dB-60dB. = Poor and may experience connectivity issues
    • 60dB. and above = Bad and will experience connectivity issues

    Line attenuation also affects your speed.

    • 75 dB+: Out of range for broadband
    • 60-75 dB: max speed up to 512kbps
    • 43-60dB: max speed up to 1Mbps
    • 0-42dB: speed up to 2Mbps+


    Please comment on this article about SNR margin and line attenuation.

    (and if you give me reputation on this, I shall return the favour)
    Last edited by Admin; 29th March 2015 at 08:37 AM.
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    Thanks just4kix it was good to about it...can u also state the difference b/w adsl+ and g.dmt

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    Quote Originally Posted by just4kix View Post
    (and if you give me reputation on this, I shall return the favour)
    Lessons from corporates! Given by management guru just4kix!
    ^^Thanks for d info! I've added to ur reputation, now its ur turn!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gurusam View Post
    Thanks just4kix it was good to about it...can u also state the difference b/w adsl+ and g.dmt
    Basically it is the technology difference.

    G.DMT is ADSL1 whereas ADSL2+ is, well, ADSL2+.

    Refer these articles: G.DMT and ADSL2+
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    Thumbs up

    added repo

    and thanks for such a nice and informative post

    you are rocking just4kix :rockon:

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    I too added repo for just4kix for this post but the repo power of just4kix has not increased??

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    Each repo gives a point. I have 36 points so far. I do not know how Rep Power is calculated.

    Post something informative and I promise that I will return your favours.
    *** Never argue with an idiot. ***

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    just4kix u r kix smart buddy i think u r the favourite here .................. Cheers buddy..........................

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    If you get problems regarding those shits then how do we fix it?

    Nice article ,by the way.

    best regards,
    Spectre

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    Wink

    J4X you are tempting me to one more Modem / Router crash !!!
    I'll surely be up on something Tonight !!!

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    If there are problems, then you need to get line checked and replaced if necessary.

    BSNL provides BB on copper wires and this poses problem of environmental corrosion. Voice is relatively unaffected but data is not.

    http://www.indiabroadband.net/bsnl-b...ions-bsnl.html

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    How could I miss this article(and your offer) for so many days... I played with my router settings to increase SNR... but once achieving that, never cared to research about it... Thanx for the compiled information... U r wonderful...

    Reps for u...

    lol... system is asking me to spread some reps 1st... so its due...
    Last edited by itsmemad; 22nd September 2008 at 11:51 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Quote Originally Posted by itsmemad View Post
    How could I miss this article(and your offer) for so many days... I played with my router settings to increase SNR... but once achieving that, never cared to research about it... Thanx for the compiled information... U r wonderful...

    Reps for u...

    lol... system is asking me to spread some reps 1st... so its due...
    You are really generous on Reps Mad.... we must admit !! (Rep from my side to you. Like the Way !!)

    What exactly you played with your router to increase SNR ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovelyMe View Post
    You are really generous on Reps Mad.... we must admit !! (Rep from my side to you. Like the Way !!)

    What exactly you played with your router to increase SNR ?
    Assuming that your SNR is low, you can do the following to increase your SNR are the following:

    a) Identify where the telephone wire runs into your home
    b) Trace it all the way back to the junction box
    c) Check whether the cable is in good shape - not too much weathered, etc.
    d) At the junction box, check the connection. Is it corroded, oxidised? If yes, note it down.

    Make a written complaint in duplicate to the exchange about frequent disconnections (even if you are not suffering that). Tell them the wire/connection is weathered/corroded/oxidised.

    A promise of Rs.100 baksheesh to the linesman will work wonders.

    p/s. I have assumed that the splitter is correctly splitting the voice and data circuits at the point of entry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by just4kix View Post
    Assuming that your SNR is low, you can do the following to increase your SNR are the following:

    A promise of Rs.100 baksheesh to the linesman will work wonders.

    p/s. I have assumed that the splitter is correctly splitting the voice and data circuits at the point of entry.
    Thx J4X...
    I'll check. I am sure there is corrosion in line but not much exposure to weather..
    The J.Box has a chaos like condition .... Rs. 200/- chai paani has already worked wonders !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by just4kix View Post
    Assuming that your SNR is low, you can do the following to increase your SNR are the following:

    a) Identify where the telephone wire runs into your home
    b) Trace it all the way back to the junction box
    c) Check whether the cable is in good shape - not too much weathered, etc.
    d) At the junction box, check the connection. Is it corroded, oxidised? If yes, note it down.
    From the junction box,the telephone wire directly runs to my house. Its a new wire,I got it changed recently.
    I dont have any paralled connection.
    But still the SNR value is around 7~8.
    Attn Value is around 40~45.
    I do experience frequent disconnection for 10 sec...
    When the connection is there...I get the expected speed & I dont face any issues.
    Collection of my useful Threads - All in One

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    Then there is a problem with the port at the exchange. Make a written complaint in duplicate. Get the duplicate signed by the DE of the circle.

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    Ok..THanks....will do that....
    Collection of my useful Threads - All in One

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    Quote Originally Posted by just4kix View Post
    Then there is a problem with the port at the exchange. Make a written complaint in duplicate. Get the duplicate signed by the DE of the circle.
    Hey you found what port your BSNL guy was talking about ??? Is this the same you had problem with ??

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    I have no idea about what port? After repeated queries they would not clarify. They said that the BB connection runs to the exchange and to the port of the DSLAM. Probably something similar like an ethernet port.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovelyMe View Post
    You are really generous on Reps Mad.... we must admit !! (Rep from my side to you. Like the Way !!)

    What exactly you played with your router to increase SNR ?
    Yeah... I don't mind giving reps... if a person has done some work to help others on this forum... I'm always 1st to rep him...
    Any1 feels nice to get recognition for his work.... so, in a way its a small appreciation from my side...

    thanx for ur rep...

    I changed router's mode from ADSL2+ to G.DMT... it worked wonders... downstream rocketed from 9 to 41... u can give it a try too... but if it doesn't work... revert back to ADSL 2+...

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    This post derserves REP points, Thanks "just4kix".
    Munni badnaam hui, darling tere liye
    Le zandu balm hui, darling tere liye

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    Quote Originally Posted by just4kix View Post
    Then there is a problem with the port at the exchange. Make a written complaint in duplicate. Get the duplicate signed by the DE of the circle.
    To whom should I write the written complaint & to whom should I submit...
    Collection of my useful Threads - All in One

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    Quote Originally Posted by jee.ramesh1983 View Post
    To whom should I write the written complaint & to whom should I submit...
    To the divisional engineer at the exchange.

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    Default measure ment of SNR and Line attenuation

    how do I measure / check my SNR & line attenuation ?
    is some software / hardware required for the same ?

    my ADSL comes through Copper cable , joints galore along the way from around a distance for abt 4 -5 km frm the Exchange , after the Dp Pole it goes directly to the splitter and then to the modem (UT Star 300 r2 ) ....

    can I know if this would lead to extreme drop isn Signal ? My tel line is faily clear , scratchy only when it rains !

    pls advise


    thnks

    toolman/~

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    Toolman,

    u can log-in the router config. page by typing 192.168.1.1 in internet explorer... it will ask for username & password... Type admin in both fields(its by default)... now a new status page will open... scroll down... there u can see things like snr margin & line attenuation..if ur downstream snr is > 20 then its fine... & line attenuation should be < 20... else get ur line chkd...

    hope it helps...

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    Thnk for the response and I did as directed .... this what wht i was looking for and got
    my results as seen on my dsl page is as follows
    Snr downstream : 26.8 +/- 2 or 3
    Snr Up stream : 18.0 fixed

    line attenuation :downstream :37.0 fixed
    Up stream : 13.5 fixed

    whts is upstream and down stream definations pls ?
    I guess my attenuation downstream is not so good and i guess its b'coz my line is scratchy ....

    regds toolman /~

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    U can see 1st post of this thread to get answers of ur questions...
    btw, unless u r facing any problem in ur internet connection nothing should worry u...

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    Very informative post!

    repped you...

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    Hey,
    my SNR ratio is 12.5 upstream ans 15 downstream. Its on the lower side right??
    Attenuation is 15.5 and 8.9. This is supposed to be rally great. Right?

    Whats the reason for this i.e good attenuation and bad snr, is it common.
    BTW i am getting only about 1.5 mb speed during free time. Is this normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambush View Post
    Hey,
    my SNR ratio is 12.5 upstream ans 15 downstream. Its on the lower side right??
    Attenuation is 15.5 and 8.9. This is supposed to be rally great. Right?

    Whats the reason for this i.e good attenuation and bad snr, is it common.
    BTW i am getting only about 1.5 mb speed during free time. Is this normal.
    SNR Margin and Line Attenuation are two different things. The Line ATtenuation in your case is low, probably because your line is freshly laid and has little resistance. SNR Margin is not very bad for you but an improvement will not harm. SNR Margin can be on the lower side due to quality of signal at the exchange.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambush View Post
    Hey,
    my SNR ratio is 12.5 upstream ans 15 downstream. Its on the lower side right??
    Attenuation is 15.5 and 8.9. This is supposed to be rally great. Right?

    Whats the reason for this i.e good attenuation and bad snr, is it common.
    BTW i am getting only about 1.5 mb speed during free time. Is this normal.
    The attenuation is really low and ideally u should be getting 30+ dB of SNR. Dont know why the modem is displaying 15dB.

    Attenuation is dependent upon factors like distance between the modem and the exchange, the amount of cabling being used, the number of nodes and internodes. And both the attenuation and snr are inversely proportional. Low attenuation = high snr and high attenuation = low snr.

    Most of the subscribers are getting he speeds which u had mentioned during the night time. Hence there is no need to worry about that.

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    hey thanks for the great info bout these terms kix...!

    repped!
    DON'T beam me up, Scotty!

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    Thanks, starryknight.

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    hey u dint return the favor :lol:
    DON'T beam me up, Scotty!

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    Hey, I did give you a repo on 19-Feb-2009 @ 5:54 pm. Check your User CP.

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    aah that was you ...hehe so i returned the favor
    DON'T beam me up, Scotty!

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    More than that - one repo from me earns you 8 points.

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    accha so thats wht the rep power means .. thx for that kix!

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    Some posts by surinder1508 and replies to those posts were moved here: http://www.indiabroadband.net/bsnl-b...ull-speed.html

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    Thanks just4kix it was good to about it...can u also state the difference (Vendor ID (Local/Remote):TMMB / BDCM)

    //Moderator note: You have not activated your account. Please click on the link in the mail you received from the forum admin in your mailbox. Failure to do so will cause all your posts go into moderation. - just4kix

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    Thanks just4kix it was good to about it...can u also define Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM

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    @dlalhosn
    can u also define Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
    Usually none checks these !
    snr attn power line speed check itself
    gives some idea about line conditions.

    PARA TW0: for more information :

    From GOOGLE search :

    Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
    TMMB in the speedtouch is actually broadcom, its just speedtouch want to be special.
    You can get the firmware and the upgrade utility here.
    h t t p://xxxxxxxxx/routers/( *redirects to wrong website
    5 CPE Vendor ID to Integrated Circuit Manufacturer

    5.1 ADSL/ADSL2+

    ALCB = Alcatel (now ST Micro)
    ANDV = Analog Devices
    BDCM = Broadcom
    GSPN = Globespan
    IFTN = Infineon
    STMI = ST Micro
    TMMB = Thomson Multimedia Broadband
    REF:xDSL KnowledgeBase - www.hardwarezone.com.sg
    Last edited by essbebe; 9th March 2009 at 08:47 AM.

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    How do I measure / check my SNR & line attenuation ?
    Totally am new to brandband as sombody said i have logged into the moderm but i dont knoe how to get thsi information (i didn't find any text "SNR" or "line attenuation")

    My system Config
    OS:windowsXP
    ModemNA-A211-I

    below is the image of my router's login page

    h**p:// img136.imageshack.us /img136/8620/ modem.jpg

  45. #45
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    Default DNA-A211-I SNR/Attn data page.

    under Device info/Statistics ADSL

    Device Info
    Summary
    WAN
    Statistics
    LAN
    WAN
    ATM
    ADSL
    Route
    ARP
    DHCP
    ......
    ...............
    DSL
    Diagnostics
    Management
    Statistics -- ADSL

    Mode: ADSL2 AnnexM EU-56
    Type: Fast
    Line Coding: Trellis On
    Status: No Defect
    Link Power State: L0

    Downstream Upstream
    SNR Margin (dB): 30.3 9.6
    Attenuation (dB): 7.5 29.2
    Output Power (dBm): -16.7 6.0
    Attainable Rate (Kbps): 11684 1787
    Rate (Kbps): 2063 519
    Last edited by essbebe; 24th March 2009 at 12:44 AM.

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    h**p:// i40.tinypic.com /2i0g7f5.jpg

    i got the result thanks for ur help!

    check it out please did I have do anything for my torrent speed to increase
    now iam getting average 120KBps, highest 180KBps

    i Downloaded axxo torrents form mininova.org

    i have these problem also ht*p://www .indiabroadband. net/bsnl-broadband/16371-limited-no-connectivity-bridge-mode-guys-plz-help-me.html

    config:
    TCP/IP connection changed to 50
    Utorrent
    setting half** to 50
    OS: WInXP sp2
    modem : bridge mode
    Last edited by anbutorrent; 24th March 2009 at 12:48 PM.

  47. #47
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    @anbutorrent
    The link given wrongly. It should be png instead of jpg.
    Your ADSl stats are fine.
    Default
    i40.tinypic.com/2i0g7f5.png
    img136.imageshack.us/img136/8620/modem.jpg

    You can copy /paste the links as above and delete http and www to avoid errors.
    Also when you go to Advanced settings in this page you can upload the image as annexure.


    Para two:
    Please type 192.168.1.1/look.html
    to find out FW for this modem.
    Please post data.

  48. #48
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    192.168.1.1/look.html
    i had tried this page but nothing comes up! blank page

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    SNR (Downstream) 20.5 dB
    SNR (Upstream) 19.0 dB
    Line Attentuation(Downstream) 28.0 dB
    Line Attentuation(Upstream) 13.0 dB



    this is my result...please do comment on its improvements and all

  50. #50
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    There is not much the user can do to improve SNR/Line Attenuation. It is all the characteristic of the phone line.

    All that be done is check the phone line at the junction box. The contacts get oxidised in time. Cleaning the contacts can help. But you have to know which is your own line.

    Some of the techies have claimed that switching mode from ADSL2+ to G.dmt improves the SNR slightly. No idea. In my case, it made no difference.

  51. #51
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    Tutorials - ADSL > Understanding Line Loss and Measurements

    Improving your loss figures.

    Tutorials - ADSL > Understanding Line Loss and Measurements

    short extract : conclusions

    Unfortunately there is little you can do about the actual line itself
    other than get it maintained by BT. But you can take some steps
    to ensure that you are not adding more than the minimum loss yourself:

    1... Use good quality Splitter / Filters.

    2. ...Use good quality extension cables.

    3. .....Ensure that where you plug into cable sockets
    ......... that the pins are clean and bright.
    .......... It has been known for the connections here to corrode with time
    .............and you could try pulling out and re-inserting the plug into
    ..............the BT socket several times to polish the connections.

    Hopefully the above information will have been useful to those
    who wanted to know more about their ADSL connection

  52. #52
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    SNR is not simply the ratio of signal value to noise value. It is the ratio of signal power to noise power ratio. It is a unit less quantity.
    Whenever a ratio is expressed in decibel it means 10 times the logarithm base of 10 of the ratio.

    (Source Electronics Comm. Systems , George Kennedy 3ed)

    Otherwise this thread is quite helpful & fabulous.

  53. #53
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    Thanks Luke.

    --------

    @all, I was checking "SNR+Line Attenuation" keywords in Google. A search result found many hits and Admin should be very happy to note that this article comes right on top of the search results (3rd).

    There were many forum linkss, and many have given a link to this article.

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    Nice presentation!!!!! . really informative. CONGRATESSSSSSSS.....
    still little more needed for me......... wht is the difference between local snr margin and remote snr margin. is there any significance by knowing these value ? also local line attenuation and remote line attenuation............... can these values help to identify the problem. my values i will give below please make a comment and direction.

    local line attenuation: 47.5 dB
    Remote line attenuation: 26.5 dB
    local SNR margin: 20 dB
    remote snr margin: 6 dB
    Local Tx power: 12.4 dB
    Remote tx power: 16.7 dB
    Last edited by Admin; 5 Days Ago at 07:56 AM.

  55. #55
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    Please take a look at the values. I am facing a minor disconnection problem. At times pages take time to load. I tried BSNL and OpenDNS.

    SNR (Downstream) 42.0 dB
    SNR (Upstream) 13.5 dB
    Line Attentuation(Downstream) 13.0 dB
    Line Attentuation(Upstream) 7.0 dB

  56. #56
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    28

    Unhappy Frequent disconnection .Please help !

    I have Home 500 C plan. I cannot stay connected for more than 20 min.Suddenly while surfing my speed becomes 0 kB/s for no reason .When I look at my router I see the yellow DSL light blinking which means that its reconnecting(I'm using pppoe mode).The green internet light always blinks.I have read somewhere it means that my connection is out of sync. While surfing this site after every 10-20 min I get a message to log in again which may be because my IP changes after reconnection.Is my SNR too low ?



    What are super frame errors ? Are they causing problem?

    router:Siemens sl2_141
    plan:500C
    OS:Windows XP pro

  57. #57
    meetdilip
    Guest

    Default

    Your SNR values are too low.

  58. #58
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Question Frequent disconnections

    I complained to BSNL .They told me that my phone line is OK because they can't hear any noise in my phone
    I don't think anybody at the office knows what SNR is.

    what should I do now

  59. #59
    Its Time To Change !
    deepmohan's Avatar
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    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,418

    Default

    Ask them to check your line completely, for faults like loop.

    Check whether the line cable comming to your house is all right there should not be any cut and joints it should be a single direct cable.
    ___________________________________

    Cheers...!

  60. #60
    Junior Member
    hexwiz's Avatar
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    Dec 2008
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by power_downloader View Post
    I have Home 500 C plan. I cannot stay connected for more than 20 min.Suddenly while surfing my speed becomes 0 kB/s for no reason .When I look at my router I see the yellow DSL light blinking which means that its reconnecting(I'm using pppoe mode).The green internet light always blinks.I have read somewhere it means that my connection is out of sync. While surfing this site after every 10-20 min I get a message to log in again which may be because my IP changes after reconnection.Is my SNR too low ?

    What are super frame errors ? Are they causing problem?

    router:Siemens sl2_141
    plan:500C
    OS:Windows XP pro
    Super frame errors are also known as crc6 errors which means the data packet is corrupted enroute. This could mean a lot many things and going by the stats, the low SNR and high attenuation certainly signify line issues which may be inside the premises or out. You could start with the cables and connections and making sure they are plugged in proper. Make sure the adsl filter is not faulty and that the modem is plugged into the correct adsl port on the filter and not the phone port. If that doesn't resolve the problem it certainly is your provider's call. And on the modem GUI if it gives you an option which says something akin to "Connect on demand" and if it has a check box - leave that UNchecked. EMI can also cause such but I doubt that's what's happening here. But nevertheless you could make sure there is no electronic device too close to the dsl modem or cables as they could cause interference. This would include equipments like speakers, tv tubes, power amplifiers, power supplies, radio, microwaves, cordless phones etc

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