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kranknut

Hi,
This is my first listing, so please be liberal with your advice and easy with your criticism.

I am considering having a new Desktop assembled to run CAD (AutoCad, Revit), rendering (3DS Max) and serious 3D Modelling (Rhino and Maya--the distinctions are debatable as 3DS Max is also a modelling software and Revit uses the same rendering engine as 3DS). This is all that I need the machine for--I don't intend to use it for Gaming or anything else (I have access to enough other machines for that).

My proposed budget is 32000-35000 with monitor. A simple Samsung monitor is around 7000, so that could be deducted to get the price for the machine. At the same time, I am also looking for that optimum balance between power and price. In other words if my budget is 28000( without the monitor) but 30000 would mean a major jump in computing power, I'll go for it.

Here are some of the constraints of ACAD, Revit, 3DS Max etc:
- 64 bit OS (XP/Vista for now, and 7 by next year--they will release a version for it by then).
- at least Core2Duo 2.4 Ghz Processor
- at least 4 GB RAM (Preferred 8GB RAM for Revit). I believe--incorrectly maybe--that a Quad core will allow me to open and work with say 3DS Max and Revit at the same time.
- a workstation Video Card with support for Direct 9 and Direct3D 9 or higher
(for Graphic Card compatibility, see usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10032262)

Now I have talked about this with the computer shop owner in Wazirpur Delhi from whom I buy most of my stuff. He suggested that I go for the AMD Phenom 950 processor with a MSI board--he didn't clarify which Video card he'd add--just a mid-range 1 GB card. The Graphic card bothers me the most...

What configuration would you suggest? Which processor, which motherboard, and above all which Graphic Card. And if there is a vendor in Delhi you trust, please do mention that too. If possible, I'd like to have the machine running these software for at least 3 years (although I think it will be able to run ACAD for much longer).

I am hoping to figure this out and decide within the next week, and so I'll also post the final configuration and my experience with it here.

Thanks to all of you in advance

18lama

Good to find another CAD user on this forum...

Now as far as your graphics cards go., the quadro series cards are very expensive. But if you are seriously considering working on Max or Maya than quadro is the way to go. It quickens the rendering time like anything, I have seen a demo of it. 8GB ram is more than good enough for Revit.

Have you inquired how much does a basic graphics card would cost?

Also whatever you do...buy an Nvidia card in this case. Don't go for ATI.

rajan1311

I could suggest to u the rest of the config, but, same problem, Graphics card.
Workstation graphic cards are too costly. Normal ones will not help at all. So, for now, i would say go for a Processor with loads of cache memory.Try to get an Intel Q9550. A G41 mobo. 4GB RAM (later see if u need more). An entry level graphics card (a 9500GT 1GB maybe ?).

The graphics card(normal desktop) will have minimum effect IMO. So its ur call.

18lama

One more thing: If you can afford it, I would also suggest you go for a large 22" monitor. I am using Lg224ws...and its great fun working on CAD and MAX...you get so much space when doing things. No need for constant zoom in and zoom out...

Regular gaming card like GTs or GTX won't work with CAD and MAX. they require quadro series cards.

rajan1311

^^ True. Its just about 3k more(its 10k i think), would help u.

That is what i have said. But, its still better to get a card so that he can get better general performance and not use the crappy onboard graphics.

Most basic Quardo (the FX370) has 256MB of ddr2 memory, costs Rs7100.

Also, y do u say avoid ATI Fire series ?

kranknut

Thanks for all the quick replies. Really appreciate this input...

I understand about the Nvidia cards being better than ATI in this case--I read a review to that account on xbitlabs.com (Am not allowed to post the url here--so do check it out if you have a min).

The graphic card still bothers me...Is there a way to change it later (or have two cards--I could built the system without the Workstation card and with a gaming card for now, and get the second card later).

This is a precise config (and thanks for it):
Intel Q9550. (I believe it is around Rs. 10000?)
A G41 mobo.
4GB RAM (later see if u need more).
Quadro FX card (10000).

What do you think this will cost? My intuition is that with monitior this will exceed 40,000 (even without Sound card and a small HD only for now).

Or a config with a Phenom Processor? I also believe that with the Phenom processor it would be possible to have DDR2 memory for now and add DDR3 memory later. Am I right? That would kind of "future-proof" it to some extent.

The idea of a 22" monitor is mouth-watering...but the cost? I know Acer, LG, and Samsung make "value-for-money" screens...

Once again thanks for all the input. If possible, please "sketch-out" the whole system so that I could make the decision with all of you right here.

Again thanks for all the input. Hope I can contribute positively one day to the community too.

18lama

Qaudro cards are not for general performance. They are there to enhance productivity. Nvidia is a supreme performer compared to ATI. Also has better support structure.

If you really want to future proof it go for DDR3 ram. cost of the 22" monitor should not exceed 12,000/-.

rajan1311

The Q9550 is for about Rs12,000.
A 22" Monitor costs Rs10,000. A 24" is about 14k.

So here is the Intel Config:
Q9550(2.80GHz,12MB Cache,1333MHz FSB) -Rs12,000
Asus P5QPL-AM Motherboard- Rs 4,100
4GB(2X2GB) Corsair DDR2 800MHz RAM- Rs 3,100
Nvidia Quadro FX370 256MB DDR2(supports DX10.0) - Rs 6,700
Optical Drive- Rs 1,100
Segate HDD- 500GB - Rs 2,700
Standard Case with PSU - Rs 2,000

This comes up to Rs 31,700 excl TAX.

For a Phenom Config:
AMD Phenom 2 945 (3.0GHz,2MB L2 cache,6MB L3 cache,AM3) -Rs 12,000
Biostar TA790 GXB A2+ Mobo - Rs 4,900
Rest is same.

To save money, and to see how lucky you are, u can get an AMD Phenom 2 720X3(2.8GHz,1.5MB L2 cache,6MB L3 cache,AM3) for Rs 7500. Its very fast.But the best part is that u can unlock it into a Quad core. Both the Phenom 2 i have told support both DDR2 and DDR3.

Hence, now u have enough cash to get urself a 22" Monitor. Chk this:
Theitdepot - Monitor

U can get a 22" for about 11k and a 24" for 13.5k. Prices on this online shop are usually a bit higher than stores, so its gonna be a bit(about Rs1000-700) cheaper.

Problem with the DDR3 RAM now is that its not much faster than normal DDR2 800Mhz ones. Usually the DDR3 RAM u get is @1333/1066MHz. U can get RAM @ 1600/1800MHz too, but it will not run at those speeds with all processors and mobo. U may also have to increase the RAM voltage to keep the speeds that high. Hence, i dont see any real reason to jump on to DDR3 (high price,High latencies, Minimum performance gain).

also, i did read that review, and found that 18lama was totally correct, Nvidia is the way to go. Here is the link:
Nvidia Quadro FX vs. ATI FirePro: Professional Graphics Accelerators Roundup - X-bit labs

I suggested a 9500GT for general performance. Any idea where he can buy a 2nd hand quadro ??(frm some closed office maybe ?)

kranknut

Thanks... This is it for now then:

Intel Config:
Q9550(2.80GHz,12MB Cache,1333MHz FSB) -Rs12,000
Asus P5QPL-AM Motherboard- Rs 4,100
4GB(2X2GB) Corsair DDR2 800MHz RAM- Rs 3,100
Nvidia Quadro FX370 256MB DDR2(supports DX10.0) - Rs 6,700
Optical Drive- Rs 1,100
Segate HDD- 500GB - Rs 2,700
Standard Case with PSU - Rs 2,000
A 22" Monitor costs Rs10,000.

This comes up to Rs 42,700 + TAX.

For a Phenom Config:
[I don't think I'll try the AMD unlocking for now, maybe in a future config--once I am comfortable tinkering with hardware.]

AMD Phenom 2 945 (3.0GHz,2MB L2 cache,6MB L3 cache,AM3) -Rs 12,000
Biostar TA790 GXB A2+ Mobo - Rs 4,900
4GB(2X2GB) Corsair DDR2 800MHz RAM- Rs 3,100
Nvidia Quadro FX370 256MB DDR2(supports DX10.0) - Rs 6,700
Optical Drive- Rs 1,100
Segate HDD- 500GB - Rs 2,700
Standard Case with PSU - Rs 2,000
A 22" Monitor costs Rs10,000.

This comes up to Rs 43,500 + TAX.

...That is unless someone knows a motherboard that can take two graphic cards--a gaming card that I can install for now and a workstation card that i can get later (will also be great, 'cause then I can also consider adding an extra monitor later).

The other "big" question here is still the AMD vs Intel...

Thanks, and hopefully I will have this assembled soon and can then provide feedback on that.

best...

Hey 18lama, What CAD programs do you work with. I am trying to find out if anyone in Delhi works with Rhino?
best...

18lama

I am an Interior designer and 90% of my time is spent on Autocad 2009 and 10% on Max 2009. I've tried Auto2010 but did not find it to be very good.

I also teach both of them at the University. I haven't tried Rhino or Archicad.

rajan1311

Hey an AM3 mobo (AM3- AMD motherboard with DDR3 memory support) is there on TechShop.in - Buy Tech Online Now!!! for Rs6700. Chk it if ur interested. I would strongly recommend that u got for a Phenom 2 720X3 (Tri core,2.8GHz,1.5MB L2,6MB L3 cache). It would be about 4k cheaper for u. Also, its hell lot easier to overclock it(its reallly easy !!!). So, now u can get DDR3 at about the same price as before(Phenom 2 720+AM3 mobo+DDR3 memory).

also, ur using this system for daily use and not for benchmarking. U will not say to ur fren that hey my PC can render it 4sec faster than urs !!!
So, what i mean to say is that, all the components we recommended will run ur required software pretty smoothly, so dont tax ur pocket too much.

kranknut

Does anyone know about soft-moding a Games Graphic card to emulate as a Workstation card. This could save me a packet.

Here is where you can read about it
techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539 - Tech ARP - NVIDIA GeForce To Quadro Soft-Mod Guide Rev. 4.0

I'll really appreciate any input, especially about running it in a 64-bit envrionment

just4kix

I will not go into the debate of which processor, which graphics card, etc. I am not an expert in those areas.

My only advice will be to stretch the budget as much as possible and be as future proof as possible. This is not really possible because in 6 months your configuration will become outdated anyway. But if you are able to spend, say 10K extra, and able to stretch your desktop life to 4 years, instead of spending 30K and requiring an upgrade after 2~2.5 years, then I would certainly recommend spending extra.

__________________

kranknut

...I like this. Thanks rajan1311. And yes, I am not interested in benchmarking, but the overall machine (since I'll also be doing modelling with Revit and not just rendering with the Metalray engine). I guess if you think that the overclocking is easy, I'll go for that too (won't I need an extra fan for it?).

So this is what this config should work out to:

Phenom 2 720X3 - Rs 8,400
Biostar TA790 GX A3+ Mobo - Rs 6,700
4GB(2X2GB) Corsair DDR3 RAM- Rs 7,800
Nvidia Quadro FX370 256MB DDR2(supports DX10.0) - Rs 6,700
(or a softmod Card, same price but a DDR 3 card maybe)
Optical Drive- Rs 1,100
Segate HDD- 500GB - Rs 2,700
Standard Case with PSU - Rs 2,000
A 22" Monitor costs Rs10,000
Keyboard, mouse, Wireless card (need one)

About 43,500 (excl. of tax)

Much better than the other two config overall? I do like the idea of a good Mobo, DDR3 and I think 3 Cores should do the trick.

thanks again. ...I'll wait for the input on softmod of Graphic cards.

rajan1311

I cant read that article, gives me an error loading article. If its possible, then it would be kik ass. It should be possible as they are basically the same hardware. The FX370 is a 9400GT(hardware wise). So, just PM me the link as i wanna read it....

k i just read that article, it looks fine. W8 for what others say. If ur ready to do it, i would suggest u get an 8600GT (about Rs 3500). U can convert that in to an FX1700.

But, there are low gains in maya.....

kranknut

First,
just in case anyone is still interested, here is the article on soft-mod of Graphic cards.

techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539

I am really interested in more input--and thank ratan1311 for his.

Just another thing that I have been discovering is the difference of prices here and abroad. Basically if one looked at an online retailer like newegg.com, then the desktop config would cost the following:

Phenom 2 720X3 $120
MSI 770-C45 AM3 AMD 770 ATX $70
EVGA 8600 GT $45
Corsair 4 GB DDR3 RAM: $80
Seagate HDD 500GB $60
Antec Case $50
Acer 23" Screen $160

Overall around 31,000 with keyboard, mouse, wireless and including taxes and shipping!! This is easily 8000 less (without calculating taxes, and taking into account that I have included here an 8600 GT card, which would reduce the config's Indian cost by around 3000). But then I also have a good case and a better screen here...


Why so much difference? Just brooding...sorry

rajan1311

The cost difference is bcos of higher taxes in india. Coupled will lot less competition here and LOT less demand.
Actually the rates are pretty bad in europe and aus too, plus, newegg is usually a lot cheaper than US retail.

there are worse examples of price difference. An ATI4870 in US costs $120(Rs5700), in india cheapest 1 is Rs 12,000.

kranknut

The higher taxes would hold water for about 12% cost increase but the cost of retailing in US is much higher (due to returns, insurance, wages and whatnot). Also Europe has much higher taxes and the cost of retailing is even higher (minimum wages is usually 2.5 to 4 times that of US).

The less competition is a fact--but in a global market that argument should hold only limited water--in case of main items such as CPUs (where there is enough demand, and the range is relatively small) this should not happen. But it does...

That is why I am finding mostly "Grey Market" stuff here in Wazirpur Delhi. Instead of Kingston Ram that is supplied "officially" from Kingston India, it is from an importer who gets it via Singapore (and therefore even with a "bill" it is difficult to ascertain if it is "original." And in the "cash-and-carry" system, it is what it is...(I am going to look into Nehru Place Market this week). Ditto with motherboards or Corsair RAM...

...One wishes (no?). Especially as I am working under a clear budget (and so far all our configurations are above it.

Well, do also have a look at the new $298 Compaq laptop (with 3Gig RAM, AMD processor, Graphic Card etc) that is not being marketed by Walmart in the US.

kranknut

Hi,
This is what I am getting at Wazirpur Delhi. Most of them don't have AMD and want to only deal with Fast-Moving-items.

Intel Core 2 Quad, 2.66 Rs. 9600
(a 2.8Ghz Quad was quoted as 13500)
Intel 35 MOBO Rs. 5100
RAM: Rs. 2400
Segate Hard Disk: 500GB SATa Rs. 2500
Quadro FX370 Rs. 7250
Cabinet 1200
Optical Drive, SONY 1150
Logitech Keyboard/mouse 690
22" LG Monitor: 9100


With UPS etc. this is around 41000. Most

I am still looking. I'll make another trip (will also see if I can try going to Nehru Place tomorrow or on Monday.) Just am going to keep updating things here (in case anyone is interested).


This is what I had envisaged from the forum discussion here:


Intel Config:
Q9550(2.80GHz,12MB Cache,1333MHz FSB) -Rs12,000
Asus P5QPL-AM Motherboard- Rs 4,100
4GB(2X2GB) Corsair DDR2 800MHz RAM- Rs 3,100
Nvidia Quadro FX370 256MB DDR2(supports DX10.0) - Rs 6,700
Optical Drive- Rs 1,100
Segate HDD- 500GB - Rs 2,700
Standard Case with PSU - Rs 2,000
A 22" Monitor costs Rs10,000.

This comes up to Rs 42,700 + TAX.

For a Phenom Config:

AMD Phenom 2 945 (3.0GHz,2MB L2 cache,6MB L3 cache,AM3) -Rs 12,000
Biostar TA790 GXB A2+ Mobo - Rs 4,900
4GB(2X2GB) Corsair DDR2 800MHz RAM- Rs 3,100
Nvidia Quadro FX370 256MB DDR2(supports DX10.0) - Rs 6,700
Optical Drive- Rs 1,100
Segate HDD- 500GB - Rs 2,700
Standard Case with PSU - Rs 2,000
A 22" Monitor costs Rs10,000.

This comes up to Rs 43,500 + TAX.

There was also a AMD Phenom II 720 with DDR3 configuration which I was most interested.

rajan1311

if u dont have a problem frm buying online, u can use TechShop.in - Buy Tech Online Now!!! .

There u can buy all ur stuff.